CHAPS wrote:You have a problem working out consistantly? That comment alone tells me you shouldn't be touching any steroids, learn how to lift and eat correctly, you can meet your goals naturally.

Dmarksvr wrote:Dude...re read what i asked in response
What im confused about by what you said is doesnt test count as an aas? and if so, and if it is gonna shut down my natural test, what are the benifits opposed to the anavar or whatever...is it a matter of degrees? Would proviron not counter act most of the effects the the test supplement would be there to combat?I have no doubt adding it will show me great results...to much to fast is my fear though, given what i know a drug like anavar has done for me in the past.

If we are talking using it to compensate for lack of sex drive, im not to worried about that given my prior experience with anavar, and the fact that i'll probably add proviron to my cycle, wether i go anavar or tbol. And its looking like im gonna go tbol now which seems to promote libido, and probably stack proviron with it...then do nova as pct. But after reading some more...probably 20-30mg instead of the 10-15 i originally stated.

Still curious about the liver effect of tbol compared to anavar?

Kevcallyuk wrote:Bump to that if your not training regularly then you run the risk of injury ass are for the comited who have there diet and training sorted and are used to it missing training is a cardinal sin and you wont get the gains you want steriods put a strain on your body so when you run a cycle for 12-14 weeks you need to get as much out of it as posible before you have your off time to let your system recover i think you can achive what you want without ass. A few of my frends commented when i started that i was taking the easy way by using but without training and eating ass wont do anything other than shut you down. I hope you get what you want bro good luck

gustavo77 wrote:Yes, Test is a AAS but whether it is synthetic or natural it is test. Anavar is not test and neither will anavar replace the effects of testoterone in the body. So if you take anavar or t-bol without test you will shut down your test production with no replacement. Also at 150-200mg/wk of test you are just above normal range and will not blow up, just make nice steady lean gains. T-bol is not that harsh on the liver, and is effective at 40-60mg/day.

gustavo77 wrote:Look i am only making suggestions based on what i have experienced, so yes, I recommend doing Test with ANY cycle.

Dmarksvr wrote:Gotcha.....so now that im probably goin with tbol (chlordehydromethyl TESTOSTERONE), probably stacked with proviron and clomid and/or nolvadex as pct....do you think a supplemental test injection is needed as much, if at all?

Visions wrote:What Gustavo is trying to tell you is... When you take Any steroid it shuts down your natural production... Without your natural production of Test you can get these symptoms: Depression, Fatigue, memory problems, moody, libido problems even with Proviron... See your body needs Testosterone to function normally... Also your gains wont be as good cause now you don't have your natural production of test that was maintaining your current weight etc...

When you read some of those article about Tbol and Anavar not shutting you down much, those are very low doses that arent effective to do even the amount of muscle building you are wanting...

Toxicity for each is low but there isn't much clinical data,,, what we have is many guys that got tested through the years while on a cycle with these compounds and their liver values were normal or just slightly elivated...

You mentioned using Clomid for PCT... thats a hell of alot better and you'll definately recover correctly with it... It has some side affects but works great...

Dmarksvr wrote:Got that, was just unclear at the time if anavar and/or proviron would compensate or atleast mitigate some of that until the pct was started. And now Im wondering the same for tbol (since its different, and seems to be a form of test) BUT given what you just said, it doesnt sound like it counts?

Also with the cycle im thinking of ( tbol 25ishMG, proviron, then clomid and/or Nolvadex as pct) would there be any benifit to taking the nolvadex during the actual cycle then saving the clomid for pct or vise/versa? Also would that or any combo of nolvadex AND clomid just be overkill with the tbol/proviron?

Dmarksvr wrote:
Also with the cycle im thinking of ( tbol 25ishMG, proviron, then clomid and/or Nolvadex as pct) would there be any benifit to taking the nolvadex during the actual cycle then saving the clomid for pct or vise/versa? Also would that or any combo of nolvadex AND clomid just be overkill with the tbol/proviron?

Visions wrote:Sorry, you need to research more before you jump in,,, this last paragraph is rambling and lets me know you don't know what each drug does and what it's used for...

So what I want you to do is answer a few questions and also tell me what these drugs do and how they are used... Yea it's a test but you can cheat and read up on it before you answer

#1) Nolvadex, What is its clinical name? What is it and how is it used and why... What steroid is it mainly used with?

#2) Clomid, What exactly is it? Why and how is it used? What doses? What negative sides can it cause?

#3) What is HPTA and what affects it and how

#4) PCT--What does it stand for? Why is it needed?

#5) Name at least 3 drugs that stimulate LH production?

I could go on and on but these are relative to the cycle you are proposing and it's to your benifit that you understand how and why you use these drugs and combinations of each and what happens to your body when you use them... All info should be on this site but feel free to search the web... You may think I am giving you a hard time but really I want you to learn and understand...

Visions wrote:You have a very vague understanding and it hasn't yet clicked in your mind how it all goes together...

By your statement of what NTG said you don't understand that there isn't a substitute for Test and only Test can do everyting that Test does... Yes other steroids may be derivatives of Test but that doesn't mean they function like test...

The dose that we recommened for Anavar is 40-60mg and most guys take 50mg ed... Thats the same as you did in the past... You can safely run that cycle for 10 weeks with Anavar @ 50mg ed... of course you can stop at anytime you feel you are finished but 10 weeks is ok .

If you have done 50mg Anavar ed with no problems then I think you should stick with it cause Tbol may have the opposite affect on you as in negative sides like libido problems and other concerns when you don't suppliment with test...

I am not gonna give you the answers to that little test that relates to your cycle cause your mind is made up and there is no use in me wasting more time... I know what your goals are and even though they may be small there is a certain way to do things to keep the negative sides at bay and to keep your body safe so it will function again on it's own in a timely manor...

Dmarksvr wrote:At the time it wasnt that i didnt understand, rather i wasnt clear on the specifics because all you said was test. And thats often applied as a generic term for any type of test and/or derivatives. So i asked because i wanted clarification. I did understand that straight test was used to avoid all these negative effects while the aas did its job and before the pct was started... But i also wondered if other forms would help at all or not.... even if straight test was all you were talking about. I guess i could of just made sweeping assumptions or a random guess but i thought it might be smarter to just ask you to be more clear and expand on the subject.

And no i havent made up my mind yet, and i've already changed it once during this thread based on what people said about tbol...and i have to admit i didnt think anyone would talk me out of anavar, but then i started to reconsider(evidence that hey maybe i do have an open mind). So i start asking questions about the cycle with tbol, and we get into the thing about test so i start asking about that. All this because i want to get an idea of the risk vs rewards, any long term effects of doing it like i was thinking, the likely hood of this happening or that, how proviron or other drugs might help/hurt/interact if i chose to risk it without test supplement, etc..etc..etc....All so i can attempt to make an informed decision that i feel comfortable with.

I understand that the cycle i was thinking about isnt ideal...but how not ideal is it? So i ask questions concerning short term risks, long term risks, odds of, degrees, specifics, other peoples real world experiences and how it all relates to me. I ask all these questions and for advice so i can make MY OWN CHOICE....not so you can make it for me. In the end what does it get me? "If you dont already know...well then we arent gonna tell you"... Very helpful.

Dmarksvr wrote:Visions: "I am not gonna give you the answers to that little test that relates to your cycle cause your mind is made up and there is no use in me wasting more time... I know what your goals are and even though they may be small there is a certain way to do things to keep the negative sides at bay and to keep your body safe so it will function again on it's own in a timely manor..."

Im sorry but that basically amounts to "if you dont know...im not gonna tell ya" Atleast as far as what me and Visions was discussing.

Discussion... thats what i was goin for. And No many of my questions havent been answered atleast in full, and some were flat out ignored. Is the info somewhere on this board? ya probably....but many of them arent super general questions like..."hey whats good to make me look super cut?" , "whats pct?"...etc. Many of them are very specific to my situation and a particular drug combo, dosage, effect...etc. Or questions that a quote from a drug profile, or some book wouldnt fully answer. Shit that i'd really have to dig and dig to find an answer.

One example is the stuff about using test to supplement during the aas cycle to avoid negative sides. I got it the first time they said it. Im sorry that i didnt know or assume that when someone says "test" that will only ever mean straight 100% natural testosterone. But still no one would answer my questions about whether any derivatives or other drugs like proviron would help, and if so to what degree. It was like "we said test works...be happy with that."

Hell most boards i've been on, if you start talking about something and part of discussion leads to a topic thats kinda general, they will atleast say "hey man check out this thread its all about that topic." Maybe they'd even suggest you start a new thread to discuss that, or suggest you search for "blank"..... and generally "use the fucking search button" statements are reserved for whole topics dedicated to some noob questions like "i just bought an african lion!!! what should i feed it????"

At first that seemed to be how it would be here, but i realize now that if i dont take what someone says as gospel truth, refrain from asking further questions and just do what they say im gonna get attacked, told i dont understand what im being told, just dont get it, or atleast told they arent gonna talk to me anymore in general or about the topics i wanted to DISCUSS.

Dmarksvr wrote:thank you...thats likely what i'll do. I am considering starting on a pretty low dose though just to see how it works. The stuff is so cheap that i can afford to play with it a little. Worst case senerio if i have to up the dose it will give me more incentive to keep working out consistantly to get the results i want, and that may help me establish the habit of working out regularly with or without gear. I also will likley get some clomid and nolvadex for pct, in case i react badly to the clomid.

I've been reading up on the debate of clomid/nolvadex use before/during a cycle....trying to figure out if using one or the other as an attempt to boost the test production before or during the cycle would have any benifit(i read some stuff that said studies showed nolvadex raised natural test production similar to clomid) . And wether it would be complimentry to the proviron.... Any thoughts on this? Or heaven forbid should i start another topic?

Seems like from what im getting so far, the mechanisms the aas involve to shut you down arent directly related to how much test you are producing (or have free to use) once exposed to the aas...so that they likely wont help to prevent shutdown. Also some of the effects of clomid might  conflict with proviron use as an attempt to mitigate the side effects of natural test shutdown. Atleast thats my take so far.

Also along these lines...can any one offer up some other suggestions besides proviron that might combat the side effects from lack of natural test production while on aas?

gustavo77 wrote:Well what happens during a cycle is that AAS make your body think there is sufficient hormones circulating so that it stops producing it's own. Clomid or nolva will not help this on cycle and would basically be a waste of money. Some people however have had results with taking tribulus on cycle. So if you took 2-5 grams per day of tribulus along with proviron this may help you and i recommend trying it. Now as far as clomid giving some people side effects this is true so it is best to have both nolva and clomid on hand for pct. Start with the clomid pct i recommended, then if you start to experience sides switch to nolva. Nolva should be taken for three weeks like clomid but at 60mg/day the first week, 40mg/day the second week, then 20mg/day the third week. In any case i wish you all the best bro, keep training , be consistant and you will achieve your goals. Peace.